VR Policy Minutes

Persons present are Mr McKinney, Ms Hall, Mr Richards, Mr
Schwartz, Ms Foster, and transcriptionist Ms Fuller. Meeting
taking place in the Svarga conference room in the Mag Mell wing in
the Vanaheimr building with all parties in person. The door is
closed with the sound proofing indicator indicating that no sound
is capable of exiting the room. Electronic devices have been
turned over to Mr Sullivan-Vasquez who stands guard outside. No
persons have brought any notes on paper. No persons save for
myself transcriptionist Ms Fuller have brought any means of
marking notes. The meeting begins at 7:01 AM.

McKinney: "Okay, thank you everyone, for taking the time to be
here. I want to begin by saying that everything is ahead of
schedule for the next quarter's content, so a big round of
applause to Mrs Harris's team for helping us with that."

Clapping from McKinney, Hall, Richards, Schwartz, Foster.

McKinney: "Taking advantage of this extra time that we might have
on our hands, we want to start looking ahead to the following
quarter. We had already planned big updates on audial haptics."

McKinney gestures to Hall.

Hall: "Yes, everything in the labs has been, phenomenal, when it's
working. I know some of you have been up to try it out. It makes
the immersion in battlefields, doesn't it?"

Hall gestures to Richards.

Richards: "I have never felt so much like I was there. It doesn't
even seem like a game anymore. The um. The non-battlefield context
demo was also remarkable. The, shouting, argument one."

Hall: "Yes! Oh you tried that one?"

Richards: "Yes, I know the role fanatics are going to love it.
Love it."

Hall: "Have you tried it?"

Hall gestures to Schwartz.

Schwartz: "No."

Hall: "Come on up any time."

Schwartz: "It's a little outside of my function."

Hall: "Anyways. McKinney."

McKinney: "Right, thank you. Big updates for the quarter after
this upcoming one are audial haptics, a new 70s disco environment,
a new Ancient Greece beach environment, and of course a wealth of
new outfits and hair styles as always."

Laughter from Richards and Schwartz.

McKinney: "But, since we're looking at possibly an extra month of
development cycles, we have the freedom to bring something new and
unexpected to the relevant quarter. My understanding, unless
something has changed since early yesterday, is that, Richards,
you are proposing that we add bestiality content, into the
experience."

Sighing from Schwartz.

Richards: "Correct. That is still what I am proposing."

Foster leans far back in her chair and begins flicking a fidget
device in her right hand.

Richards: "Historically, you know, when we're racking our brains
for ideas on what to add in, we look to our most dedicated fans,
one large subsection of those being the modding community. Based
on the popularity of downloads and installs of those, it's a very
reliable indicator of what content people may feel is missing from
the experience, what fixes they may want, what they feel should be
expanded upon. At launch, the very idea that we would have sex in
the experience at all was something we had decided against, but,
over the years, it became clear the demand could not be higher,
and Schwartz was able to get us through the legal aspects of
endorsing sex as a part of the as-sold experience with no mods
needed. And it could not have been better for sales or for
community engagement. But, obviously we went after, you know, the"
(Richards makes air quotes) "biggest slice of the pie first, with
straight, gay, and bisexual, vanilla as most people would say,
humanoid sexual situations. And we've added to it piece by piece,
you know, bondage was a very head scratching one to pull off in
VR, but, McKinney, the community is generally very pleased with
what you and your team managed to come up with for that. And, if
we're looking again at the modding portion of the community,
bestiality is the most popular mod category that is not yet
actually implemented in the game."

McKinney: "Most popular that we're actually considering. I assume
we're not considering underage."

Richards: "Beast is actually more popular than underage. There was
a spike in underage a while ago but generally beast has always
been more popular of the two."

McKinney: "Oh."

Schwartz has put his head down and is rubbing his temple.

McKinney: "So, I guess, Richards, you are the proponent of this,
as the Chief Community Engagement Utopiist. What's on the table
here, what content are we proposing gets added?"

Richards: "Well, at a most basic level, currently animal models in
the experience are intentionally sexless, and the first place we
would have to begin with is adding detail to the genital regions
of existing animal models."

Schwartz continues hanging head and stroking temple.

Schwartz: "We can do that."

Foster continues leaning back and using fidget device.

Foster: "That's fine."

Richards: "And then we would add in the ability for humanoid
models and animal models to interact sexually."

Schwartz: "No."

Foster: "Absolutely not."

McKinney gestures to Schwartz.

McKinney: "Hang on, hang on. Let's let him get through all of
what's being proposed."

Hall: "I love it."

McKinney: "Richards?"

Richards begins counting on his fingers.

Richards: "Adding detail to animal genital regions, adding
humanoid-animal sexual interaction, adding animal-animal sexual
interaction, adding animal mating routines into environments with
animals, adding role sequences for humanoid-animal dating. Those
would be the goals for content additions on this topic of
bestiality."

McKinney: "Hall, you think this is good?"

Hall: "I think it's great. My department will be bored because I'd
imagine we can already entirely use existing sounds for this, but
just as someone with friends who play, I know people who would
love this."

McKinney: "Okay. There were some objections?"

McKinney gestures to Foster.

Foster: "Detailed animal genital regions or scripted animal mating
routines are fine. Both of those together and or any of the other
items absolutely cannot be included in the experience."

McKinney: "Give us your perspective on why that is."

Foster: "How much time you got?"

McKinney: "Until eight, if it's important we can go over and I can
reschedule my eight."

Foster stops using the fidget device. Foster looks around at
McKinney, Hall, Richards, Schwartz, transcriptionist Fuller.

Schwartz continues hanging head and stroking temple.

Richards looks across the table past Hall at the opaque light
window.

McKinney and Hall return Foster's eye contact.

Foster: "Adding detailed animal genitalia, or adding
noninteractable animal mating behavior that doesn't involve
detailed genitalia, would be fine on the grounds of realism and
non-erasure, while having both, and or any of the other proposed
items, would bring this into the territory of pornography and
encouragement of harm."

Schwartz continues hanging head and stroking temple. With other
hand, without looking up, Schwartz gestures to Foster.

Schwartz: "Legally, agreed."

Hall: "Half the use case of the experience is pornography at this
point, might I mention."

Foster: "Not like this."

Schwartz: "Exactly."

McKinney: "What is the characteristic difference between this and
the BDSM stuff?"

Foster: "Consent."

Schwartz: "Right."

Foster: "Obscenity."

Schwartz gives a finger gun gesture to Foster.

Foster: "How this will come off as an endorsement or an attack on
other communities."

Schwartz gives a thumbs up gesture to Foster.

McKinney: "So there are sensitivity and legal concerns."

Foster: "Big time."

Schwartz: "There are."

McKinney: "Are there further legal obstacles?"

Schwartz: "There is not enough of a precedent to say whether this
type of content would be allowed in any of the regions we operate
in."

McKinney: "What do you mean not enough of a precedent?"

Schwartz: "I mean, no one has tried to make virtual bestiality
porn experiences on a commercial scale as big as ours, and I can't
tell you that we won't find ourselves without a product when we
release that update."

McKinney: "Well, wait wait wait, wasn't. What was your mantra when
we were adding gay stuff, initially, and a lot of the bondage? The
law is the law, and the law is meant to bend to free expression."

Schwartz: "That is a mangled version of what I said, but yes, it
was to that effect."

McKinney: "Is this actually different?"

Schwartz: "The difference is that in this case I don't know. I.
Don't. Know. I. Okay. I."

McKinney: "So it's not legal or illegal?"

Schwartz: "Correct to an extent, although it depends on the
region. Across all applicable regions, we are inviting legal
liability."

Schwartz slides his hand off of his temple, and sits back upright.

Schwartz: "This meeting is not illegal, I don't mean to imply that
us discussing the concept of adding it to the software is illegal.
You all can talk about it all you like. What I can do is listen,
and then, if we are going to go ahead with this, in my own time,
when I have my resources at hand, I can begin attempting to
prepare a report on the legal roadmap ahead of us, if we did go
ahead with this. I'm not saying the legal challenges would be
impossible. I am saying that they are present, and that,
professionally, I can't tell you that this is wise."

McKinney: "I've heard that, that's lawyer talk for yes."

Laughter from Hall and then from Richards.

McKinney: "I mean, you sound pretty against it from a legal point
of view, is there anything to discuss at all, or is this your
personal opinion?"

Schwartz: "I don't have personal opinions Mr McKinney. My
professional statement is to caution you that doing this would
present legal challenges that I am professionally averse to."

Hall: "I still like it."

McKinney: "Um. Foster, you raised three items."

Foster: "Yes I did."

McKinney: "Consent."

Foster: "Yes."

McKinney: "It's software."

Foster: "It's software we have made a point of making comply with
consent or any sexual encounter terminates."

McKinney: "Right, but, since it's software, we have made consent
more clearcut to achieve and more lenient to maintain."

Foster begins using her fidget device.

McKinney: "In a simulated scenario, is it so impossible to imagine
what consent cues would look like? We came up with it for that
deaf mute character."

Foster: "Very different."

Richards: "The community is aware of our consent policy, and the
more vocal opinion is agreement with it, but, there are extensive
writings people have done outlining how they think our policy on
consent could reasonably apply to animals. That people agree to,
whether or not they agree it applies to real animals, the general
consensus is that in VR consent cues could be made by animals that
would align with our policies just fine. I find it persuasive. You
know, in, a platformer, you have your first obstacle that teaches
you you need to jump, and, piece by piece, shows you the mechanics
and how to figure them out. In an animal dating scenario, we would
be able to teach our mechanics of consent, what to look for in the
animal, how to obtain it, and just like a humanoid interaction,
losing it would end the interaction."

Foster: "The point of the consent mechanic in the first place is
to make players not completely lose sight of how such ideas are
relevant to real life."

Richards: "The community would argue that you would know in real
life very quickly if you haven't gained consent with an animal,
based on our mechanics."

Sighing from Foster.

Richards: "If you haven't gained consent with an animal or that
you haven't gained consent with an animal, whichever way you feel
is prudent to put it."

McKinney: "The next issue you raised, Foster, after consent, was
obscenity."

Foster: "My vocabulary to describe that point sensitively is
lacking."

Laughter from McKinney and Richards.

Foster: "I know, I know, Chief Sensitivity Utopiist. Obscenity may
not be the right word exactly, but, image, impression, very bad.
Very nausea-inspiring. I'm. Choosing not to use some words that
are coming to mind. Filthy, beyond what a large portion of our
userbase would consider acceptable."

Richards: "That is not what my data finds."

McKinney gestures to Richards.

McKinney: "Well, hang on."

McKinney gestures to Foster.

McKinney: "What is the worry there?"

Foster: "It's the least of my points. But as it stands we have
skated above the tide on being transgressively sex positive, and I
have reservations that this would tank us into being regarded as
immoral."

McKinney: "Richards?"

Richards gestures to Foster.

Richards: "I will acknowledge that global public perception is
more your wheelhouse than mine. My impression of our existing,
very large fanbase, is that it would be celebrated. And be very
good for existing user engagement and userbase growth."

McKinney: "The third item you brought up, Ms Foster, was that this
might be seen to be in support of or in defiance of some groups?"

Foster: "Very much so."

McKinney: "Do you have some examples?"

Foster: "Very directly it would be seen to be in support of real
life zoophilia."

Hall gestures to Foster.

Hall: "I'm gonna stop you right there, I don't see any reason we
shouldn't endorse real life zoophilia."

Laughter from Richards.

Hall gesticulates.

Hall: "I've got kinky friends! A member of my direct family is a
zoophile and he seems cool to his dog wife!"

Foster drops her fidget device.

The fidget device remains on the floor.

Richards: "To Ms Hall's point, supporting zoophilia is maybe not
the worst thing in the world. Like I said, I've read a lot of
posts of people talking about this. These are. Well. From some I
see why you have reservations, I'll say that first. But a lot of
these people, my impression, is that they're just people trying
their best to be decent, in a world that hasn't given them the
tools it gives others, to learn how to be decent. Maybe we could
be a part of that."

Foster: "I disagree with that. And I disagree that this is the
most productive use of our company's time and efforts, if the goal
is cultural uplifting."

Richards: "I disagree. I think it's a perfect use of our company's
time and efforts if the goal is cultural uplifting. These people
are dying of being underserved."

Hall: "They are. This would be very meaningful to them."

Foster: "I haven't conceded anything by the way, but just to get
this last point out there to see if I'm completely alone."

Schwartz: "You're not."

Foster: "Thank you, Mr Schwartz. Last point, point three part two,
about how this will negatively impact other groups. There is a
longstanding history of hateful talking heads making the argument
that homosexuality, transgender, what have you, will lead to so
much social collapse of morals that soon enough bestiality will
become permitted. Given our reputation currently of being
transgressively sex positive, we would be giving credence to all
of those alarmist proclamations, tacitly saying they were right,
undermining positivity on things we do endorse."

Hall: "I don't see it that way at all."

Foster: "Is this your area of expertise, Ms Hall, Chief Sound
Utopiist?"

Hall: "All I'm saying is my zoo friends are trans, they love
themselves, I'm a lesbian, I love them. I think you're coming from
a place of giving those intentionally harmful talking points too
much credit."

Foster: "This would be a disaster caused by our company."

McKinney: "What if."

Hall: "I don't. Sorry McKinney. Quickly, let me just say. Ms
Foster, I don't want to discount your perspective either. My
trouble is your perspective seems to be harmful to people I care
about in a way that I'm surprised to hear coming from you, expert
on sensitivity. But, sensitivity doesn't mean your job is to be a
pushover, it is to stand up for the sensitive, many different
varieties of the sensitive, each of which have their own sensitive
areas, I know that, and, that's what I'm wanting to acknowledge. I
just wonder if there's. Never mind. I apologize for my tone,
that's all."

Foster: "Thank you, I appreciate that."

McKinney raises his hand.

Hall: "Would you be willing to meet with my zoo friends, if they
would be willing to have lunch some time?"

Foster: "No."

Hall: "That is a blatantly disrespectful attitude from this
company's sensitivity expert and I will be making a big deal out
of that."

Richards: "McKinney, I think, has an idea."

McKinney waves his raised hand.

McKinney: "What if we did everything with made up animals? A
dragon-dog mix, a cybernetic horse, golem sheep or something like
that? Would that work?"

Foster: "Yes."

Richards: "Yes."

Hall: "Yes."

Schwartz: "Yes."

Clapping from McKinney.

McKinney: "I'll get to work on the drawings and the design
considerations. Richards, email me which animals we most want
versions of."

Richards: "Dogs, but I will send you a more complete email with
fantasy motifs that might be of interest as well."

McKinney gives a thumbs up gesture to Richards.

McKinney: "Foster, please please please send me an email of
stereotyping or cultural appropriations to watch out for here."

Foster: "Already composing it in my head."

Laughter from McKinney and Richards.

McKinney: "Hall, you think our current suite of sex noises will
work?"

Hall: "More than likely, but I will ask my expert friends on the
matter."

McKinney: "Legal, any concerns with this approach?"

Schwartz: "If Ms Hall promises not to sample any sounds from real
life material of bestiality, no concerns."

Hall: "Fine."

McKinney: "Alright! Very productive, glad we got there. Let's get
at it, team."

Meeting ends.